Legislature(2005 - 2006)CAPITOL 124
02/10/2006 01:00 PM House RESOURCES
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| HCR29 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| *+ | HCR 29 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED |
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
February 10, 2006
1:07 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Jay Ramras, Co-Chair
Representative Ralph Samuels, Co-Chair
Representative Jim Elkins
Representative Carl Gatto
Representative Gabrielle LeDoux
Representative Kurt Olson
Representative Harry Crawford
Representative Mary Kapsner
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Paul Seaton
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION NO. 29
Requesting the commissioner of natural resources to complete a
management plan for the area encompassing the Pebble copper
deposit and requesting a report to the legislature.
- HEARD AND HELD
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
BILL: HCR 29
SHORT TITLE: PEBBLE COPPER DEPOSIT MANAGEMENT PLAN
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) HAWKER
02/01/06 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
02/01/06 (H) RES
02/10/06 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
WITNESS REGISTER
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE HAWKER
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented HCR 29 as sponsor.
MIKE MENGE, Commissioner
Department of Natural Resources (DNR)
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HCR 29.
STEVE BORELL, Executive Director
Alaska Miners Association
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HCR 29.
RICHARD JAMESON, President
Renewable Resources Coalition
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HCR 29.
ROGER BURGGRAF
Fairbanks, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HCR 29.
JEFF PARKER, Attorney
for Trout Unlimited and Robert Gillam
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HCR 29.
MARK HELLENTHAL
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HCR 29.
BARBARA HUFF TUCKNESS, Spokesperson
Alaska American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial
Organizations (AFL-CIO)
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HCR 29.
BRIAN KRAFT, Director
Bristol Bay Alliance, Business Owner
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HCR 29.
JACK HOBSON, President
Nondalton Tribal Council
Nondalton, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HCR 29.
BOBBY ANDREW, Secretary
Bristol Bay Alliance
Dillingham, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HCR 29.
ROBERT GILLAM
Renewable Resources Coalition
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HCR 29.
ACTION NARRATIVE
CO-CHAIR JAY RAMRAS called the House Resources Standing
Committee meeting to order at 1:07:57 PM. Representatives
Ramras, Elkins, LeDoux, Crawford, Gatto and Olson were present
at the call to order. Representatives Kapsner and Samuels
arrived as the meeting was in progress. Also in attendance was
Representative Carl Moses.
HCR 29-PEBBLE COPPER DEPOSIT MANAGEMENT PLAN
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS announced that the only order of business would
be HOUSE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION NO. 29, Requesting the
commissioner of natural resources to complete a management plan
for the area encompassing the Pebble copper deposit and
requesting a report to the legislature.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said Northern Dynasty, the mining company
[proposing to mine the Pebble copper deposit], will speak on
Monday. He referred to a letter from the Lake and Peninsula
Borough, which states that it will provide a position on HCR 29
following a meeting on February 21, 2006.
1:10:38 PM
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE HAWKER, Alaska State Legislature, sponsor of
HCR 29, said the proposed Pebble mine development in the Iliamna
region has tremendous magnitude and potential consequences. He
said he is absolutely amazed at the interest in this issue, and
as public policy makers he feels that it is important to make
sure policy reflects the state's interest. The planned mine and
its potential benefits and conflicts rises to the level that
policymakers need to take a particular interest and not get away
from the role of assuring that the state conduct a fully open
process in full compliance with the state's existing
regulations. That is what the resolution is all about, so that
Alaskans and others can have confidence in the state's process.
He said his personal intent is to make a statement of support
for Alaska's resource industry and a reaffirmation of the
legislature's commitment to be sure there is responsible
oversight. This is a resolution that discusses only existing
statute and regulations, he noted, and he is not proposing any
new regulations or increased oversight. The Pebble prospect is
subject, anyway, to current statutes and regulations, and he
said he firmly believes the state has an adequate regulatory
process to assure that if development is ultimately approved, it
will be proper and responsible. He added that the process
allows for all folks who are concerned, for or against, to
participate.
1:15:16 PM
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER said that Alaska's land planning and
classification statutes state that the commissioner of the
Department of Natural Resources (DNR) shall, with local
government and public involvement, adopt, maintain and, when
appropriate, revise regional land-use plans that provide for the
use and management of state-owned land. He said statute
requires considering fiscal, economic and social factors
affecting the area; present and potential uses of state land;
compatible surface and mineral land-use classification; and it
must provide for meaningful participation in the planning
process by local governments, state and federal agencies,
adjacent landowners, and the general public. He said the
process has worked well for the state. The Pebble copper
deposit is within the Bristol Bay Area Plan which was done by
the Department of Natural Resources.
1:17:37 PM
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER said the plan was revised in spring, 2005.
The Pebble mineral unit in the plan is designated for minerals
development. He noted that the DNR management intent is as
follows: "Mineral development in this unit is expected to be
authorized after a public process that is as extensive as this
area plan and with the benefit of site-specific data and design
that is prepared for the development and not now available.
Mineral development that is subject to an extensive public and
agency process, that involves public meetings and comment in the
area, and that involves site-specific design may require
different widths and habitat protection measures than those
specified in Chapter 2 [of the area plan]." He said it is clear
that DNR staff realized that there are tremendous resource
potentials. It is a phenomenal economic opportunity, but
likewise, DNR concluded that the state needs to conduct further
public process as detailed as the area plan itself was.
1:20:01 PM
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER said he asked DNR what that statement is
saying, and DNR staff pointed him to the regulations underlying
area plan statutes which provide for "something they call a
management plan." He noted that a management plan is a more
site-specific, detailed review of a specific prospect and area.
"DNR has said this is a great resource potential but we really
need a good solid public process," and that is why HCR 29 asks
for the public process contemplated in the area plan to be
completed and a report of findings and conclusions be provided
to the legislature prior to issuing final permits. He said he
would really like to know the science, and added that HCR 29
will not interfere with the work underway.
1:22:49 PM
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER said the language of the resolution came
straight out of existing statutes, but the difference is the
last resolve. He said he is not qualified to evaluate the
science of the research, but DNR is. This resolution is not
asking for a debate to be conducted in the legislative body, it
is only saying there is a large enough debate out there that it
should be conducted in a full and open process, he stated. The
last resolve asks the commissioner to provide his conclusions,
based on the science and arguments, on the appropriateness of
classifying this land for mineral development. He said the
legislature is not here to evaluate the merits of the issue, but
it is important that the legislature is a responsible steward of
the resources. "We do that by assuring that we have that
complete and open public forum as mandated by our current
statutes."
1:27:18 PM
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER said he is asking the legislature to
"consider if there is sufficient controversy, and is this issue
significant enough to rise to the level that we want to remind
the commissioner of natural resources that we are concerned that
he conducts this process to ensure a responsible outcome."
Former Representative George Jacko from Pedro Bay told him the
process requested by HCR 29 would bring everyone to a more
knowledgeable position.
1:28:51 PM
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX said it sounds like the only thing the
resolution does is tell the commissioner to follow the law in
providing public process, and she asked if Representative Hawker
feels that the commissioner won't do so otherwise.
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER said he has been in the legislature for
four years and he has found that sometimes the administration
doesn't do what the legislature wants without being reminded.
He said he saw a quote from DNR staff saying there would not be
a more extensive management plan, which is contradictory to what
was published in the area plan. This rises to the level of
requesting an extraordinary effort, he opined.
1:30:49 PM
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX said there have been a number of large
projects and asked if any have had a similar resolution.
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER said the legislature passed a resolution
endorsing a Kensington Mine project only a year ago. He said he
needs more information to have absolute faith that the Pebble
project should proceed.
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX asked what information the legislature had
before the passing the Kensington project resolution.
1:32:35 PM
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER said he did not know what Representative
LeDoux relied upon in order to make her decision. He said he
does not have enough information to judge the Pebble project.
1:33:19 PM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked if the public perceives HCR 29 as a
way to kill the project.
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER spoke to an article from Alaska Magazine
that defined the issue colloquially. He said he is not debating
the merits of the mine or making a conclusion for or against the
mine, and he noted that he has given the committee information
provided by the mining company on the potential economic
benefits of a mine. This is a public process, and he is not
taking a position for or against, he stated.
1:35:28 PM
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS said that some of this communication only
speaks to an open pit mine, and he has been told it may not be
an open pit mine.
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER said that is his own consternation; people
are making judgments before the information is known. That is
why he believes it is imperative that the legislature get
information that would help determine whether the project should
be developed.
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS said the state is trying to streamline the
permitting process, and this is a 180-degree turn from that. He
asked if HCR 29 creates uncertainty for developers.
1:37:41 PM
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER said we need to know what we are doing
before we do it.
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS asked if the state is doing that now.
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER said the state has an adequate regulatory
process, but this project rises to another level. He said he
worked on offshore oil and gas prospects that proceeded with
extreme caution. This is a mega-project and needs the same
degree of attention.
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS said, "It's not broke but let's fix it
anyway."
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER said he has received requests to repeal
all mining regulations in Alaska.
1:39:07 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked for a definition of a mega-project in
relation to Alaska mine projects.
1:40:04 PM
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER said he is not prepared to describe all
other projects, but the Pebble project has been on his radar
screen, and his level of concern is high.
1:40:47 PM
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX asked if this same type of resolution
should be applied to all major projects in Alaska.
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER said all projects should comply with
statutory and regulatory requirements.
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX repeated her question.
1:41:51 PM
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER said he believes the first two resolves
are a reminder to the commissioner, and regarding the last
point, how many times have we asked for a report? "We do it all
the time, but we don't do it for everything," he noted. The
legislature has the ability to make a policy statement that says
it cares about something. The legislature and the public would
be well served in this particular case to have the highest
possible degree of confidence that the process has been open,
objective, and fair, he said.
1:43:23 PM
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX asked if Representative Hawker would do
this for all projects.
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER said no; he would evaluate any future
prospect on its own merits.
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD said there are a number of projects in
sensitive areas, like oil and gas exploration in Bristol Bay.
He asked if Alaska's environmental regulations and oversight
have been weakened to the point of taking this step. "Is that
what we are saying?" he asked.
1:45:01 PM
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER said he has not implied that the
legislature has weakened any environmental standards. He said
he wants to gain the public confidence.
1:45:54 PM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said the title uses the word "requesting",
but then the resolve uses the word "should". He said he is
supportive of what Representative Hawker is doing.
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER said he was advised that the
constitutional separation of powers allowed the legislature to
only request this from the commissioner. He said he is taking
the advice of legal counsel.
1:48:16 PM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said that the conformity of the resolution
is his only concern.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said the committee should look at the resolution
the legislature passed regarding the Kensington mine.
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER said he is in awe of the passionate debate
regarding the mine, but his intent is to make sure the science
is debated on the merits.
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER said a resolution is generally innocuous,
but the governor and many in the legislature say we are open for
business. She said that means we are open for all businesses,
and HCR 29 sends mixed messages and creates hurdles.
1:51:40 PM
REPRESENTATIVE OLSON asked if the Pebble is under more scrutiny
than the gasline.
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER said each project must be evaluated, and
he does not believe the Pebble project is under more scrutiny
than the gasline.
1:52:35 PM
MIKE MENGE, Commissioner, Department of Natural Resources (DNR),
said he will speak from the heart. He said large projects have
a lot of emotion, and when there is emotion it is DNR's
responsibility to be cold and unemotional. A project of this
magnitude will include local, state and federal government, he
said, and it will be looked at from a thousand different
directions. The people of Alaska will ultimately decide whether
this project will go forward, and this is done through the
permitting process, and it cannot begin before a project
description because each permit is specific. "We take a great
deal of pride in our ability to organize all of the information
and all of the analysis into a meaningful process." He said the
process will be played out before everyone in the country.
1:57:20 PM
COMMISSIONER MENGE said it is his job to synthesize the
information, and the project will receive all the scrutiny
necessary. He said the resolution is a step beyond what DNR
usually does, and he warned that it may become a precedent. It
will not affect the way all of the agencies involved will
deliberate, and he told the legislators that they should play an
active role. He said he respects the legislative process, and
the body will be able to determine if it needs to go beyond
"what we already have, and we will certainly honor and respect
that will." He said the resolution comes with a price tag:
$400,000 for a two-year process. He said it is a solid,
defensible fiscal note. It represents one full-time employee
and three part-time staff for two years. The fiscal note has a
heavy travel component, he added. He said his hard-bitten
professionals have been through the process many times, and he
has tremendous faith in them. He said the legislature will hear
many impassionate individuals, but in most cases, only a portion
of what is heard will be correct.
2:02:23 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked about the cost being more than what the
agency would do anyway.
COMMISSIONER MENGE said the fiscal note is the best guess to
fulfill "this effort," and he might be able to trim it some.
2:03:42 PM
CO-CHAIR SAMUELS noted that the resolution is not for or against
the mine, and asked if there will there be a delay due to the
extra layer of permitting.
COMMISSIONER MENGE said the effort would have to run
concurrently with an additional layer of activity.
2:05:16 PM
CO-CHAIR SAMUELS asked if the parameters of the mine changed,
will the management plan have to be redone. He also asked if
the national environmental community would use this "as yet
another tool" to stop development.
2:06:21 PM
COMMISSIONER MENGE said it certainly is an issue that will
garner national and international attention, and no opportunity
will be missed to advance the agenda of those who support or
oppose the mine. "Additional process is that-additional
process-and will provide some small opportunities." He
continued, "This will not present a unique challenge that would
not have presented itself in abundance throughout both the state
and the federal permitting process."
2:07:34 PM
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX said she is confused because the sponsor
said the resolution just makes sure DNR follows the law by
conducting an open and transparent process, and she asked why it
would need additional money.
COMMISSIONER MENGE said he appreciates the confusion. He said
there is a tremendous amount of statute regulation that dictates
what DNR does. He said a land-use plan has a life in and of
itself; it allows for the classification of lands. "It does in
no way allow for the permitting," he said. The permitting
process will grind each issue to powder, leading to the issuance
of the permits necessary to do the activity. The land-use plan
is a process about what to do with the lands, he said, and it
will be two processes running parallel. He said the two can
affect each other, but they have their own separate origin,
process and ending.
2:09:44 PM
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX concluded that the resolution is more than
simply doing his job.
COMMISSIONER MENGE said yes because it asks for a management
plan.
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX asked the position of the administration.
COMMISSIONER MENGE said the administration does not support the
resolution because the current process is sufficient, but if it
is the will of the legislature, DNR will not oppose it.
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS asked if the resolution will have a
negative impact on other businesses desiring to do resource
development.
COMMISSIONER MENGE said there is no way to predict how the
resolution will be used. It does not represent any risk, but
how an individual will contort it or portray it "is left to the
imagination of those we've all dealt with over the years."
2:11:38 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked about the term "mega-project".
COMMISSIONER MENGE said that by convention a mega-project is
something that costs more than $5 billion. Depending on how
much resources are found, the Pebble mine could be a mega-
project. "We don't know what this project is ultimately going
to be," he noted. With each successive drill season, it appears
that the resource is richer and more widespread, which could
make the project less invasive, he added. It could be the
largest gold/copper project in the world.
2:13:24 PM
STEVE BORELL, Executive Director, Alaska Miners Association,
said this bill duplicates what is already in state law. He said
once an application is made, an Environmental Impact Statement
(EIS) and permit process takes place. He noted that the EIS for
the Pogo mine took three years to complete and had multiple
opportunities for public participation. He said it is not an
innocuous resolution. It will be carried to Wall Street,
Toronto and London and make investors afraid of investing in the
Pebble mine and in all of Alaska. It will spill over to the
Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and the gasline, he warned.
2:17:00 PM
RICHARD JAMESON, President, Renewable Resources Coalition,
Anchorage, said his group is pro-development, but the Pebble
mine is in the wrong place. "It is a huge, monstrous area," he
said. He played a video for the committee.
2:22:13 PM
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked for a list of contributors to the
Renewable Resources Coalition.
MR. JAMESON said he is not allowed to provide one.
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked how many members and contributors
there are.
MR. JAMESON said there are several hundred.
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked if they are mostly from the Bristol
Bay area.
MR. JAMESON said they are from a wide variety of places, and
many are from the Bristol Bay area.
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked if a majority is from Bristol Bay.
MR. JAMESON said that that is probably correct.
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX asked if the Renewable Resources Coalition
supports HCR 29, and if it views it as a way to stop the mine.
MR. JAMESON said it supports the resolution and it does not see
it as a way to stop the mine. He said his group thinks that it
does only a little bit more than existing regulations, but not
much. It will draw attention to the project forcing DNR to give
it more careful consideration.
2:24:04 PM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked what a [501c6] organization is.
MR. JAMESON said it is similar to a trade organization or a
chamber of commerce, and his group is made up primarily of
businessmen. He said contributions are not treated as
charitable for tax purposes.
2:24:26 PM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked if the Alaska Center for the
Environment contributes to his organization.
MR. JAMESON said he borrowed its map, but the group is not a
contributor.
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD asked his position on oil and gas
exploration in Bristol Bay.
MR. JAMESON said the organization does not have a position and
that "we are businessmen and are pro-development, but this is
just the wrong place."
2:25:14 PM
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD asked how long the group has existed.
MR. JAMESON said about six months.
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD wondered why there is no position on oil
and gas development in the same area as the Pebble mine.
MR. JAMESON said the group may take a position on it at some
point.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO noted that Mr. Jameson can't identify who
contributes, but he wants to know how much money and if there
are overseas contributors.
MR. JAMESON answered that there are no contributors from
overseas.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said, "It is disconcerting and it creates
an certain air of suspicion" about a group that seems to be
fairly large and "substantially well funded and probably by some
groups, and I personally would like to know which groups." He
said he can't prove or disprove that members are from Bristol
Bay, and it seem incredulous to him. "It just lays the
suspicion down right on the ground," he stated.
2:27:21 PM
MR. JAMESON said, "To date, there are no organizations that are
funding us. It is all from individual contributions."
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked how many other projects the group
has looked at.
MR. JAMESON repeated that the group has only existed for six
months and Pebble is its primary concern.
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER said it seems like a brown paper. She
said legislators have to list their contributors and whom they
work for and what the check number is. "To have somebody join
the public process who has a very secretive membership is
disturbing."
2:28:51 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS pointed out that Alaskans for Responsible
Mining, for example, have a list of secret contributors. He
said it is not right to demonize this group. "There's plenty of
secrecy out there lobbying all kinds of different ways."
MR. JAMESON said his group is in favor of the resolution and
opposed to the mine, "as we understand its location and its
manner of construction." He said he understands that Northern
Dynasty keeps coming out with new plans, but at a minimum HCR 29
should be adopted as a reasonable first step in making sure that
this incredible area is protected.
2:30:06 PM
CO-CHAIR SAMUELS asked if the mine permitting system should have
an extra layer in general. He said he grew up in the area, and
he asked if the Pebble mine would be different from other mines
in Alaska.
MR. JAMESON said open pit mines are so much different. When the
Bristol Bay Management Plan was created, people didn't do open
pit mines to get small quantities of gold and copper. Since
then, the process has been developed, and it is a very dangerous
process. He said he didn't think the existing management plan
ever considered a huge open pit mine like Northern Dynasty is
proposing.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked his group's response if the
resolution passed, and then the report indicated that the mine
could operate safely.
MR. JAMESON said that is a possible outcome, but DNR will
probably conclude that the headwaters of the Bristol Bay
watershed is not a place for an open pit mine. He noted that
Northern Dynasty is not willing "to let DNR take a good close
look at this."
2:32:07 PM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said the Renewable Resources Coalition
supports HCR 29 in hopes that it interferes [with the mine].
MR. JAMESON said the resolution will give closer scrutiny by DNR
to the process, and then DNR may conclude that this is not an
environmentally sound project.
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked if the group would still oppose a
mine if it weren't an open pit mine.
MR. JAMESON said he doesn't know the ramifications of a
mineshaft mine for a sulfide mineral deposit.
2:34:04 PM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked him if he has a position on mines in
other countries, because mines in the United States are cleaner
than elsewhere.
MR. JAMESON said that is not true as far as open pit mines are
concerned. He noted that many states have prohibited cyanide
mining because open pit mines have fouled their streams. "Maybe
we are better off than Argentina...but there's a lot to be
learned about methodology for open pit mines."
2:35:05 PM
ROGER BURGGRAF, Fairbanks, said he has been appalled by special
interest groups locking up Alaska and denying Alaskans good
paying jobs. He said that Northern Dynasty doesn't know what it
is going to do, so he questioned studying the issue now. He
said studying delays projects. He added that there are adequate
regulations in place, and the public will have an opportunity to
review the facts. He pondered the impacts on the state's
permanent fund if the project is stopped. He noted that one of
the individuals who opposes the project is an investor who has a
lodge in Iliamna, and he takes his clients out there to "do
investments." Mr. Burggraf said he believes this individual has
an investment firm with between four and six billion dollars of
Alaska's permanent fund money.
2:38:05 PM
JEFF PARKER, Attorney for Trout Unlimited and [Robert] Gillam on
transportation issues related to the Pebble mine, said he
supports the resolution, which provides a step-down management
plan, allowing the public to focus on the affected portion of
the Bristol Bay drainage and whether a large-scale, open-pit,
sulfide mine should be allowed prior to going through the
permitting process. He noted that DNR has done these plans in
the past, and he gave several examples. He said that DNR should
complete the step-down process prior to the permitting process
because it will be focused and much cheaper. He said a
permitting process will include fifty agencies with hundreds of
experts, and he noted that a recent mailing to federal experts
on the Pebble project included about 250 federal employees. He
stated that HCR 29 lets the people speak on whether this kind of
mining should be allowed in such an important drainage. "It's
cheaper; the commissioner's fiscal note that is already
submitted shows you that."
2:41:53 PM
MARK HELLENTHAL said he performed a public opinion survey in the
impacted area in January. He reported that 265 residents were
surveyed out of a population of 4,200, which included 11
villages and the town of Dillingham. He said 96.2 percent had
heard of the Pebble mine. After screening for registered
voters, only 8.7 percent strongly favored the development of the
mine, 11.3 percent somewhat favored the development, 15.1 were
somewhat opposed, and a resounding 56.6 percent strongly opposed
the development. He said a series of questions were asked after
giving information on employment, and more people answered that
they opposed the mine.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said the committee had those results.
2:45:37 PM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked who paid for the survey.
MR. HELLENTHAL said no one yet, but two life-long Alaskans
contacted him to conduct the survey: Art Hackney and Bob Gillam.
CO-CHAIR SAMUELS asked if there was a political subdivision to
the boundaries of the survey, and he noted that some areas were
notably absent from the survey.
2:47:14 PM
MR. HELLENTHAL said he used a map to find the closest villages
and ran it by the client. He said that no political boundaries
were considered, and the general guideline was a concentric
circle around the impacted area.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked what the statewide response would be.
MR. HELLENTHAL said most of the state has not followed the
issue. He suspects 96 percent of people in Fairbanks wouldn't
have the foggiest idea what the Pebble gold mine is.
2:48:38 PM
BARBARA HUFF TUCKNESS, Spokesperson, Alaska American Federation
of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations (AFL-CIO),
said her group supports the resolution. She said other projects
have had legislative input, and the North Star project had an
actual bill devoted to it. She said local hire and local
contracting was in that bill, but it is not in HCR 29, and that
issue should be looked at as the Pebble project moves forward.
She noted that the gas pipeline Stranded Gas Act is another
example of legislative input. She said the AFL-CIO supports the
public process and wants to make sure the information is
provided to the public. She said the group is absolutely not
anti-Pebble but has a history of supporting mining and oil
development. She concluding by requesting the committee support
a thorough review of the process.
2:51:37 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked the advantage to organized labor of
slowing down the process.
MS. TUCKNESS said it is not slowing down the process, but an
open public process is a good thing. She said the group's
membership is not public, but that does not mean it is a
secretive organization.
2:52:46 PM
BRIAN KRAFT, Director, Bristol Bay Alliance, Business Owner,
said the Bristol Bay Alliance was created to educate people in
the area on mining issues. He stated that the Pebble project is
a massive issue. Open pit mining has long-term negative
impacts. He told the committee to look at other states, such as
Montana, Wisconsin, Idaho, Nevada and Arizona where open pit
mines have done damage. In some of those states open pit mining
is now banned. He said he started out in favor of the mining
project, but after learning more, he came to his conclusions.
He also noted that it takes a long time to learn the issues.
The public needs a wide opportunity, not 45 days, to speak their
mind and to learn about the process.
2:55:14 PM
MR. KRAFT said if HCR 29 adds another layer of protection, "I
embrace it." He added that he is not trying to stop the mine,
but he wants DNR to have all necessary tools. He stated that
Northern Dynasty will do a presentation to the committee on
Monday, and he has seen it various times. He said Northern
Dynasty will do its best to convince the legislature that it
will operate safely. He said Northern Dynasty wants to do a
safe and environmentally sound project, so it should embrace any
kind of legislation that adds protection to the residents of
Alaska.
2:56:25 PM
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked about the membership of the Bristol
Bay Alliance.
MR. KRAFT said it is a nonprofit, and the board members are
seven people, four are Native Alaskans from the Bristol Bay
area, and there are 125 members with paid membership. The
majority are Alaskans, but there are some from the lower 48. He
said the mailing list is massive, and it is basically every
person in Bristol Bay. He said he started the alliance to give
the people in the area a chance to learn both sides of mining
issues. He said Northern Dynasty was visiting all the villages
doing presentations, but the communities weren't seeing both
sides. The purpose is not to stop the mine, but the decisions
can't be made without education.
2:58:17 PM
JACK HOBSON, President, Nondalton Tribal Council, said the
council has over 400 members, and all 220 members from Nondalton
are opposed to the Pebble mine. He said he has been to meetings
with Northern Dynasty where promises are made, "and we all know
that promises are made to be broken." He stated that if
Northern Dynasty could guarantee that there would be zero net
loss, the Council may look again at the issue. The people of
Nondalton support HCR 29 because Northern Dynasty has a
Memorandum of Understanding with DNR where Northern Dynasty is
paying DNR workers, which may cause biased decision-making.
Opinions might be tainted because DNR is getting money from
Northern Dynasty, and he concluded that Native Alaskans rely on
renewable resources, especially pure water.
3:00:55 PM
BOBBY ANDREW, Secretary, Bristol Bay Alliance, said he is
speaking on the behalf of some of the villages in the area and
Dillingham. Those villages support the resolution, which places
a strong foundation to protect subsistence resources and
reinforces DNR to follow requirements. It will help get rural
villages involved in the process, he said, which is very
important. Education is key at the local and regional level.
The Bristol Bay area has educated and uneducated individuals, he
stated. There are promises of many jobs, he said. Many of the
positions require at least five years of mining experience, and
most residents don't have that experience. "Once those permit
applications go through, there's many of us tariingituput (who
won't understand)." The applications and statements will be
foreign to the local people. "This resolution will give us the
opportunity to educate ourselves also."
3:05:45 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said the next speaker, Robert Gillam, is "one of
the moving forces behind" HCR 29. Co-Chair Ramras said he
wanted to correct the earlier testimony of Roger [Burggraf] who
suggested that Mr. Gillam manages a disproportionate amount of
the Alaska permanent fund, "and that is not the case." He said
Mr. Gillam has a private-sector job managing money for the
Public Employees and Teacher's Retirement fund and the permanent
fund. It is regulated in law, and "this notion that it is some
disproportionate sum and there is any undue influence in the
room as a result of that, I want to dispel that and say that
whatever your opinion is about HCR 29, that the integrity Mr.
Gillam is resolute." He added that Mr. Gillam has contributed
to many institutions and communities in Alaska. "I am always
concerned when we get personal about people, and you're a good
man," he said.
3:08:20 PM
ROBERT GILLAM, Renewable Resources Coalition, said his company
manages about one percent of the Alaska permanent fund and the
Public Employees and Teacher's Retirement funds using 100
percent Alaskan-born young people who have held their own
against other investment firms around the world. He said he and
his company own about $1 billion worth of mining company stocks
around the world. "We are, in fact, the fifth largest owner of
Teck Cominco in the world." He said he is not here to bad mouth
the mining industry. He added that as a professional investor
he can tell the committee what makes sense and what does not
make sense. He said HCR 29 asks if open pit mining makes sense
in the Bristol Bay watershed. Northern Dynasty is a second tier
mining company and it has never mined gold; they have never had
a dollar worth of revenue, he said. This company is a promotion
company, he added, therefore, the promises being made by
Northern Dynasty are being made on behalf of a company that has
not been identified. It is not the promises of Northern Dynasty
that matter, it is the promises of people who are yet to be
determined. He said never, ever in the western hemisphere has a
sulfide mine been done properly. "They always pollute." He
said when sulfur hits oxygen and water it turns into sulfuric
acid. He said mines in Fairbanks do not do that. He said his
company has invested billions of dollars in mining stocks
because it can be done right - but not with sulfuric rock.
3:11:55 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said the discussion of HCR 29 will continue on
Monday. HCR 29 was held over.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
Resources Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 3:12 PM.
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